Intermitent Mist

[Jim Lang]

I too am going to set this up soon. Cost for the controller, from my search of the catalogs can be reasonable (to me aboy $60) to big big bucks. Would like to here what yo do. I will probably do one bed cheapest way.

[bgauch]

I'm actually in the process of making one. I'm estimating the cost at about $15-$20. It could have been less, but I haven't done this before. Now that I started to get the pieces, I realize that I could have done this a whole lot cheaper. You will be supprised what you can do if you scrounge for parts. Even without electronics experience, you can still make one of these. If anyone is interested, I can keep you updated on my progress, and give out plans when I finish.

Bill Gauch.

[Twincreekfarm]

Hi Bill, I would be interested in how you build it -with out spending big bucks. I have a small one set up manually, haven't figured out the timer yet-but when summer comes turning it on 3 or 4 times a day won't do it. Daryll in NW FLA

[Tom]

Pardon my intrusion but have you guys really come up with an less expensive way to create one of these things? Like you, I am searching for the least expensive system I can build, because I don't know just how far I want to go with it. Anything you come up with, I would appreciate learning about it.

I found a couple of sites that get pretty detailed on the construction process, try this:

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-405.html

When you get there, the pictures can be expanded by simply clicking on them.

If you paste in just the part that ends with "hort", you will find a wealth of info from the U or FL web site.

[Ann B.]

Here is a site that I recently came across. Hopefully, it will give you a good understanding of what considerations to make when designing your own, and will shed some light on some of the terminology used. Click on the drawing figures to enlarge them.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/EP032

Tom, this may be one of the U of FL sites to which you are referring. I know I learned quite a bit from this one.

Thanks!

[Tom]

I don't understand, when I click on the reference, it comes up right away. It is handout leaflet # 405 from the extension service in Fla.

Anyway, although the references are different, the authors seem to be the same as does most of the content. Good job.

[bgauch]

What I'm actually trying to make is the cyclic timer part. Basically, I was going to take a couple "555" timer chips, with a few resistors and capacitors, put them on a test board and connect a battery. If you have a passing (no formal training) interest in electronics, here is a link:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~jadams/electronics/555timer.htm

It should be a simple matter to put this on a test board with a few multi-position switches to set the time-out. I have to ask an electrical engineer friend a few questions about relays. I also have to ask some what-ifs about the practical differences between AC and DC current.

Some alternatives that I thought of (if I had elec. service on my land):

1. It should be quite easy to write a timer program which interacts with a port on your computer. Then, cut open an old (or new) cable and use the signal wire as a switch for a relay. This (for me) would be the simplest method to use, being a programmer.

2. You should be able to break open an old digital clock and hook a wire from the LCD panel connection to a counter chip. Keep track of the number of seconds. Simple logic would tell you when to turn on and off.

3. Some kind of mechanical trigger. You should be able to buy clockworks from any hobby/craft store. You could hook the second hand up to one switch and the minute hand up to another. Some sort of triggering mechinism would have to be worked out to set the intervals. I may still try to implement this method for the fun of it. Also, it would give my wife a project (she is a mechanical engineering student).

There are any number of ways that one can count time. Unfortunately, its not worth the effort for most people. I mean, this effort MIGHT save me $30-$40. If I include a 24-hour timer, I might save a few more dollars. Actually, if I had electricity and phone, I could make a very elaborate setup for little or no money. I mean, it wouldn't be tough to hook up a modem, to be able to dial in at any time to tell it to shutdown because of rain, or change the interval because its really hot today.

I'm all about saving money at every turn. Well, that... and making more money. :)

Bill Gauch.

[sewfarsewgood]

I have one question and for me it is a real tough question to answer. IF I was to make a homemade mist regulator/timer -WHAT WOULD ITS RELIABILITY BE????

If I was producing for my own use - or just dinking around (no offense meant here please) to see if I could make one then I might try to make my own and would probably use the mist-a-leaf version of the commercial MIST-O-MATIC that Gene from Kirbyville Texas sent me plans for. I probably will make one of those too, since it is SIMPLE, has few parts either electronic or mechanical and only turns the water on when the plants need it. Simplicity especially involving water seems to be a good thing.

Since I plan to be rooting several thousand cuttings that are worth Thousands of dollars (Remember MIke's $4.00 plant) I need reliability, or at least someone to blame financially if the system fails. BTW I have located an intermittant mist timer that will control 4 separate zones for about $80.00. That is cheap since all the rest of the parts are off the shelf at Home Depot, except for the mister nozzles and they are available everywhere.

GAry J

[bgauch]

The reliability of anything (electric or otherwise) is very simple to determine based on a few factors. In the case of a homemade system, assuming a stable valid design, there are really only 2 things that can go wrong. The parts could fail (due to defect or inproper handling), or, you could lose power. As I see it, the second one can happen anywhere, anytime. The problem I have with the "other board's" attitude is that it ends up costing you hundreds, if not thousands up front, and you have no idea if you will succede or not. I know there is the saying, "You have to spend money to make money." This is all fine and good, except that it is extremely difficult to justify spending significant ammounts of money on plants, starting a business, etc., when I have a hard time paying all my bills. I could go out and buy a wholesale order of something or other, and sell them at retail, and probably make a profit, or at least break even. Or, I could go out, order and/or collect tree seeds, plant them, grow them for 2 years, and sell them for a much larger profit. If I save $.20 on the dollar, every year, I can take that and put it back into the business. Its a kind of dollar/cost averaging for the plant business. Granted, I could probably start turning a small profit within a year or 2 if I just started with liners, but the profit margins would be so small that I might as well be working for free. I guess I've gone on long enough. Thats just how I see it.

Bill Gauch.

[Ann B.]

When it comes to mist systems and timers/controllers, there seems to be as wide a variety of opinions as there are options. As Bill pointed out, many times the decision is dependent upon availability of cash as well as short and long term business goals.

I have seen the topic of timers alone in many forums. Often, it is the subject of timer reliability and problems. Other times, it is feature vs. cost.

A lot depends on the type of plants you are propagating, the cost of the cuttings/stock plants, and the chances you are willing to take. Climate and resources can also greatly impact the decision. For instance, Gary and Arlene J. live in an area of the country where rain and humidity is not as plentiful as it is for me. Also, access to a water source is a problem for them. There is no doubt in my mind that lower water utilization be high when making their decision.

Unfortunately, no one can make that decision for someone else.

However, I do believe that everyone has the right to make intelligent decisions based on the knowledge and experience of others. Therefore, I am hoping that those of you who research the various methods, have personal experience, and/or find good, researched based links to post them here.

Just as on "the other" board, I will discourage any vendors from participating, as their opinions, even when they disclose their identity, are most likely biased and self serving.

I do encourage links to product availability, costs and product specifications and discussion about this topic by the members of this board.

After all, we are all here to learn as much as we can from each other.

Enjoy!

[sewfarsewgood]

Yo Bll -

Remember I am the guy (actually was my wife and I) who Loudly Complained about being nickle and Dimed to death for information that is freely available on the net.

I have the e-book and it is good - mostly because all of the info - which while available on the net FREE - just happens to be in one place, saved me hours of looking it up for myself (there is a cost for time) and it was the MOTIVATION for my getting started.

You can set up a misting system for about $125.00 give or take few bucks. You don't need to buy more products to figure it out - its simple and what you don't understand the guys who sell the misting controller will tell you - FREE. Well nothing is free - you bought the controller - but at least you have hardware to use vs software to watch which still requires you to buy hardware. A Website address was posted recently that told of a place to purchase an inexpensive misting controller, but it has since been deleted. I have that website and will be happy to post it here with Ann's permission or you can email me direct at bearspaw100@hotmail.com and we can talk. At the cost of the controller its too inexpensive to go through all the time making one for myself. Email me.

Gary J

[Ann B.]

I am allowing links to other sites, but please refrain from doing so unless you feel that the information contained in that site will be useful for other members.


Thanks!

[Gene]

I always wanted to get a real super slow motor at radio shack and mount a wheel on it about the size of a dinner plate.This wheel would take 5 minutes to make a revolution trigger a switch to turn on the mist system it you want it to come on every 10 minutes you would make the wheel bigger yet.
For several mist system was going to us a variable drill or a sewing machine motor with a long shaft with several wheels on it. Just an ideal haven't every built one
gene

[bgauch]

Actually, that is a good idea. You can buy a clockwork motor with a know rotation rate for about $5 at a craft/hobby store. A bigger disk wouldn't work though because its turning at a continuous RPM (60, 1, 1/60). Hmm... you could hook it up to the hour hand part of the shaft, and use multiple triggers around the disk, set to trip at specified intervals. Hmm... now I'm thinking this might be a cheaper method. Oh well, I'm gonna hit Radio Shack today and pick up my resistors and capcitors. I talked to some electrical engineering students last night and got all my questions answered. I'm gonna try to build it this weekend. If I get time, I have a spare clock motor around, so I might try to build both. After I fix my wife's car that is...

Bill Gauch.

[Gene]

hey Bill good luck I'm cheering for you Let us know how it turns out

[William Blocker]

Dear Group,
I am one of the few who made it thru last summer with the 48.00 Nelson electronic timer.A bunch on the 'other board' had them but few made it.I would not recommend these to anyone.I stood to lose 1000's of cuttings on any given day,everyday I held my breath when I got home from work.I was so concerned I called Nelson customer service to complain.There reply was ,these units weren't intended for commercial use,my reply was then why in the #$&* are you selling them at commercial outlets?Low and behold UPS pulls up 3 or 4 days later with a back up unit which is still in the box.Even with that jesture I would not recommend these!!!!!
William B.

[sewfarsewgood]

What not to buy is as important to know about as what to buy. Could you provide model nember and where you got it and who recommended it as a usable timer for the info of all.

What problems were you experiencing with the timer.

Gary J

[John M]

I purchased a battery operated propagation timer last year from dripirrigation.com. It has a mist cycle operation which I used from the end of April until October -- runs on two 9volt batteries which you replace each season. It worked flawlessly. The model# is 510.xxxp and it cost about $94. The controller part is separate from the valve and can be remoted up to 10 feet away, but as it is shipped it only has a short wire between the controller and the solenid and a snap-on bracket to mount the controller right on to the top of the valve. There is a parts breakdown that gives part#'s if you would need to rebuild the valve or replace the solenoid. It's timing cycle is as flexible as other mist timers I believe. I didn't worry about its operation as it is advertised and sold as a propagation timer. It has a LCD readout which has a low battery warning indicator. --Ran it all last Summer and the batteries never registered "low". We have our power knocked out on a regular basis due to thunderstorms during the summer --so I'm actually more comfortable with a battery operated timer than with the hard-wired type of timer/transformer controllers.

[Ann B.]

Thanks, John!

This was would help me because we also get lots of thunderstorms.

What is the BRAND NAME?

[William Blocker]

Gary,
The model #5940.No one recommended it,some on freeplants were buying them to get started without spending alot of money.The only trouble I had was the batteries (two C)would get low a it would stick on mist,I was lucky it didn't stick closed.
Mortons and A.M.Leonard sells them,which are commercial.
Don't buy one,I repeat don't buy one!!!
William B.

[William Blocker]

Thanks John,I didn' know about these,I might try one before cutting time rolls around.I don't think my nerves will go another summer with the Nelson JUNK.
Thanks William B.

[John M]

Here's the link to help navigate through the Drip Store at dripirrigation.com:

http://www.dripirrigation.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/dripstor/prodpages/auto/c026.htm?L+drip1+bamy3744+1014536673

This should take you to the Propagation controllers -- they are made by D.I.G. in Israel. It shows how the controller can be mounted onto the valve as I have described (or you could mount it on a nearby wall if desired). If you scroll down that page it also describes the programming of the controller. When I researched it last year, I thought their directions were a little difficult to understand and I had sent them an email asking several questions --they responded quickly and were very helpful. These products are always getting some improvements so these may operate a little different than my year old model. So -- if you have any reservations or need to have something clarified -- give them a call or send them an email. It was such a pleasure -- to hear the controller click on and to see the misters take care of business without fail every 10 min during the daytime operating hours-- ( I had to look up and catch a glimpse whenever I heard it!)


John M

[bgauch]

Ok, I got my first prototype done. I have it switching on for 10-11 seconds and off for 12 minutes. I also made a version which switched on for 8 seconds every 8 minutes, and one at 4.5 seconds every 4.5 minutes. It ran a whole day with no problems on a 6V battery. In the final configuration, I'll probably use 3 of them to last longer. What range of timeouts are there on most timers? Do most people run 10 seconds every 10 minutes? Or something different? I'm up to about $10. I'm going to go get a relay (hopefully tommorow) that can handle 24 V. After I finish a formal one, I'll probably make one up on a piece of cardboard or plywood to try to make it as cheap as possible. When I'm done, I'll write up a parts list and draw a schematic.

Bill Gauch.

[Gene]

Bill,I knew you could do it.I would love to learn more on these timers. Maybe you could build them on a thin piece of plexiglass or maybe buy a small tupper ware box and then mount it inside it with the two wires poking out threw the sides
just a thought

[sewfarsewgood]

6 seconds every 6 minutes and 6 seconds every 10 minutes seems to be the most talked abut cycles.

Gary J

[careplus]

Hi All,

Re: intermittent mist system. Mr. Mike (can't mention the whole name because of spam restrictions) got me interested in landscaping on a commercial basis. (I'm always trying to make something work.) I bought his e-book and then his videos. (BEST $200 I EVER SPENT!) Monumental amount of information. It was stated earlier that this information is free on the internet if you have the time to research it. I sincerely doubt that. How can you get one-on-one support from someone who has made tens of thousands of $ in the business from a casual conversation on the internet unless that person has been there.

Anyway, I started looking at intermittent mist systems for around $400. Now, I'm not real good with solenoids, electrical stuff or even car batterys for that matter. So I was a little scared of all of this "stuff". Was walking through Stein's (local garden center) the other day and they have a mechanical or digitial water timer for $40 or $50 respectively. The settings are very precise, especially with the digital. Hook this to your water outlet and then to a hose and then to an old fashioned brass spray nozzle adjusted to a fine mist and WALLAH! An intermittent mist system for $50.

Not an endorsement...just my thoughts......Steve

[Glen in BCz7]

Bill-the mist timing for outdoors tends to be 7 to 10 seconds, because you lose so much water to wind drift. The interval would range from maybe 7 min. on a really hot sunny day, to much less on a cool cloudy one-I cut it back to just a few sprays a day on threatening days last summer.

I notice the greenhouse propagators talk about spray bursts of just 3 seconds, and that is every 10 or 15 minutes. They have little or no wind to worry about in a greenhouse, so they use really fine misters too. The shading in there can keep it cooler than outdoors, according to a buddy that grows bedding plants in greenhouses (tho his have the roll up sides as well--really effective for cooling but a lot draftier if you're trying to mist).

I guess you have to consider your own unique situation, plus it really should change depending on the daily weather. I'm going to mist under cover/shade this summer, and hope to lengthen intervals between bursts, hoping most cuttings will appreciate this. I typically ran 10 sec. bursts every 10-15 min. in full sun last summer-trying to just let the cuttings dry out between bursts to discourage fungus. I'm sure folks down south use quite a different schedule, coz my idea of a real hot day is 30 C., and only get a few of those in a summer.

Happy tinkering--Glen in BC

[vicki]

Hi All,
How did everyone do with their mist systems this year?

[sewfarsewgood]

Our misting went great as has become the usual for us. Have lots of "new" plants to sell next year - at least unusual ones such as Phillipine Violet, Bush Morning Glory, Firespike, Cigar bush, Fire bush, Chinese Fringe flower, plus all of the normal stuff we have done before.

[Ann B.]

Gary,

Is the Firespike hardy for you there? Firespike, botanical name Odontonema strictum is an herbaceous perennial here and is more commonly known as Cardinal Spear to us. It has been very popular at the Fall Botanical Gardens sale the last 2 years.

Some say that it is hardy in zones 8-11 whereas others say it is hardy to zone 7. I have a small one. It is still in a pot, and I am trying to protect it so that it can go to seed, then I plan to root cuttings and this spring I will put them all in my red/white flower bed which is partial shade and doesn't flood.

Have you ever managed to collect seed from it?

I am excited about this plant as they say it attracts Hummingbirds, and it certainly has bloomed well for me even though it is only in a 1 gallon container...

[vicki]

John,
What was that Brand Name and model number again?

Hope you had a Happy Thanksgiving!

[John M]

Vicki,

Here's the link to the Drip Irrigation Store's propagation controllers and valves:
http://www.dripirrigation.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/dripstor/prodpages/auto.htm?E+drip1

They have AC or battery powered controllers -- select only from the items that have "yes" in the propagation column as these are the controllers which have the mist cycle capability. This is really the low-cost way to go to get started. The battery operated controller comes with attached solinoid valve and operates on two 9 volt batteries. (My model C026 operated from April 15 to Nov 15 on one set of batteries. I put fresh batteries in the unit each Spring.) Note: these are professional propagation controllers and are not the ones (Nelson type) that many backyard growers had problems with as reported on Mike's boards last year.

I guess I didn't answer the question on BRAND NAME, it is DIG Corporation, Vista, CA (the unit is made in Israel).

Thanks for the Thanksgiving wishes---We did have a great Thanksgiving visiting relatives in PA Dutch country..... so much food ..too little time!!

Happy Holidays!!

John M in Maryland

[BeesKnees]

Here are the 2 timers you need and the valve and mist nozzles. You need the 24 hour timer (t101), the Cycle timer (C8815), nozzles (black).

http://www.mortonproducts.com/page.cfm/1280


Here is the transformer.


http://www.mortonproducts.com/page.cfm/1337

The rest are pipe fittings, pipe and a hose.

[Junior Balloon]

When I was 20 I worked in a wholesale nursery. They used a mist timer that worked off of weight and not a set time. It was built like a little teeter totter about 14 inches long. On one end was a weight and on the other was a piece of screen about 4 inches square.

the water would come on, accumulate on the screen until the screen was heavier than the other side and the water would turn off. As the water evaporated making the screen light again the water would come on.

This seems like a great system as it would adjust to the conditions in the greenhouse.

Are these just old fashioned and not in use anymore or was this an old timers secret gadget?

jb

[William Blocker]

J.B.
They still make those misters.They are called Mist-A-Matic and sell for $185.00.
William B.

[Ann B.]

Yes, they still make them and use them, and Mist-a-Matic is one brand name among several...

The subject of misting, how often to mist and how long to mist is a complicated one. It depends a lot on the particular cultural requirements of the plant that you are propagating and your specific environmental conditions.

For many plants, just keeping the leaves moist (ie., reducing transpiration) is enough. For others, that may be too much or too little. That is why there are more complicated mist control systems. Some even take the environmental conditions into consideration, and use controllers to turn the mist off or on depending on those conditions.

In a small nursery and home landscape environment, this is usually accomplished by 'observing' and making the appropriate decisions based on those observations.

Here are some links that I found:

Installation of Mist Propagation Equipment (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_EP032)
By the University of Florida Cooperative Extension Service

Installation of Mist Propagating Equipment (http://www.uog.edu/cals/PEOPLE/PUBS/Propagat/EP03200.pdf)
Same as the above link in Acrobat Reader Format with Better Drawings....

Mist Propagating Systems (http://www.uog.edu/cals/site/pubs/mist.prop.bklt.pdf)
Guam Cooperative Extension - University of Guam
(This one has some excellent images of equipment parts..)

A Simple Intermittent Mist System for Propagation (http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-405.html)
by North Carolina Cooperative Extension Service

Please note that when using intermittent mist, consideration must be made of the effect that misting has on the soil, such as leaching of nutritional ingrediates in the potting mix. Most large nurseries will test for this and add amendments to the water supply to compensate.

Like I said, it can get complicated. It depends on how far you want to go with it, and how successful you want to be...

And, again, it pays to know the requirements of the plant you are propagating. Some do not require any mist and all, and some do not do well under mist!

Quite frankly, I have propagated many plants without a mist system, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I would be as successful producing large quantities of these plants as I would be with a mist system and the appropriate controls.

When needed, it pays to learn more...

And I certainly hope this helps you do just that!

[Tom]

Not so far from me there is a paper company pine tree grower. The guy who roots the millions of pine trees from cuttings each year, is a friend of mine. He had installed a mist-a-matic in their operation, because it sounded ideal for them. As it turns out, they only used it for a short while because at certain parts of the year, it does exactly what Ann described, it makes the cuttings too wet. Now, this mans full time job is managing this rooting operation, and they have many, many mist systems going year around. The controllers are very adjustable as to frequency and duration of mist cycle. They make those adjustments based on experience with the plants, and seasons. I don't know how often they adjust them, but they are constantly checking for air, plant, and soil moisture to see if adjustment is needed. Their zone specific mist controller was quite expensive, and flexible. They also apply fertilizer through the mist system based on the age and need of the various beds.

My point is this, there is no single "mist controller" that will solve every propagators needs. Here in the deep south, where the humidity can sometimes range in the upper 90's, the timing would be quite different from out west where the humidity can go down to 10-15%. So, anyone who tells you that "all you need" is some pre-set timer, has not considered where you live, and what you are doing, nor what your experience is.

[Ann B.]

Gosh!

This brings back memories!

Where has the time gone?

It is doubtful that many of the links in this thread work, but I'd be interested in hearing about new ones.;)

[John_NY]

Hi Ann,

Good to see that you got the new and improved version up and running. (I still say that if you need some monetary support, you should ask me, and other members). I think I first discovered this site because of a person (I don't think he posts anymore) that I met on GW, who respnded to my offer on how to build your own mist timer, for just a few bucks. I can still offer these instructions, and diagrams, for anyone who wants them .

[vicki]

John,
I would love to have your instructions, etc. I'm quite poor and this could help alot. I've been rooting cuttings in a large deli cake container. Mums did quite well in there.
Thanks!

[Ann B.]

Thank you, John! Eventually, I will add a PayPal icon for contributions, but this would be strictly voluntary. Right now, I am behind on several projects here. Obviously, contributions would help.

Vicki,

Click on John's member name, pull down to view public profile, click on contact information, then click on his home page link which is his website:

http:://www.johngrows.com

Then click on "tips & tricks".

Don't forget to look at his plant pictures!

Enjoy!

[Ann B.]

Oh, Neat!

Vicki, it is even easier than that!!!

When you click on John's member name, on the pull down menu, you can select to visit his homepage. I tried it, and it is soooooo easy!

[John_NY]

Vicki- Hope you got the information you wanted. If not, post again.

Please keep in mind two things, with these instructions.
1. They were written several years ago, so prices of some components may have gone up somewhat.
2. You need to use an old fashioned alarm clock, one with hour and minute hands that go around, not one with a digital read out.

[vicki]

Thanks John! Wow do u grow all those tropicals? Kewl!

[lbfoss]

I am presently on vacation and have the luxury of reading all the posts I always wanted to review. Thank heavens for this forum and this series of postings. I eventually hope to set up a misting system, and eventually I might be able to do it with the wonderful discussions still available here. thank you everyone for participating....I am still in the "coke bottle over the yogurt container" system but one day......
Linda

[stp445]

Below the mister, not right below but, just off to the side you will need a solenoid switch out of the washing machine lid and some different size metal screening. It will have to be wired into the control valve for the water. When the spray comes on, it will fall on the screening and push the switch down and shut off the water at some point and when it evaporates the water will come on again. Usually some repair shops will sell the switch fairly cheep if you take it out yourself.
AND, for your Winter heater contact a plumber and have him drop off the next hot water heater at your house and then cut the water tank off and use the 40,000 BTU burner and the regulator. The tank is the only thing that goes bad on a water heater.