Grafting

[Glen in BCz7]

It's that time of year to think about grafting many different, tho not all, things.

This'll be my first time if I can actually find big enough understock among all the seedlings I've been growing (mostly cedrus deodara and pinus sylvestris).

I'm nervous like a teenager at his first high school dance (you know, hugging the gym wall for dear life). I've read all I can find, not much on the net or in books, looks like most expert advice is that there are many ways to do it and even different areas of the world have differences in timing and aftercare.

So far my plan is to do side grafts of the conifers, using a straight (disposable) blade on my utility knife. I'll tie up the grafts with rubber bands, then spray some with aerosol pruning paint, leave others, and try to keep the plants real humid in my warmest low poly tunnel(which does tend to be dripping wet this time of year from the heating wire pushing water out of the sand).

I also have just a few himalayan birch seedlings, which apparently could use some selected (proven good bark form) scions grafted on. I suppose these could also be done by side grafts, I think the side graft works for most anything unless there's a good reason to go with one of the "decapitating" styles.
I could try more of a whip graft with a few to see if there's any advantage.

Anybody with experience out there chime in with your observations, or just wish me luck!

Glen

[George B]

Glen your post sounds like your scared to be asked to the dance.

Grafting is something that has disappeared here cuz of the lack of understock. Sorry I cant help you there but you are using the easiest method to start.

Taxas doest require any grafting except for Capitata which I have a flat of for testing.

I had time this year to take cuttings from my Heptacodium. Checked this morning and their the only ones that have new growth.

I cant wait to start digging B.B. Take care! George.

[Glen in BCz7]

George--that's interesting about the understock affecting the number of places doing grafting.

Here the big conifer grafting place (which you know about) started out by growing their own understock, then started buying it in. They said it was too important to have a uniformly graded stock, which the big rootstock growers could give them better than if it was grown inhouse.

From what I've seen here, there are only about 2 growers that do some understock, and both are very limited in what they grow. I would say the grafters, of which there are not that many, either grow their own understock, or I'm sure most get it in from Oregon. That does require a good big order to fulfill the min. order requirements from places like Heritage and Meadow Creek, but I bet their quality is topnotch.

Hope the heptacodium grows, and sells, real well, George. I just started sprouting another Chinese shrub from the same part of East China, kinda new to the trade. Called calycanthus chinensis, also still called sinocalycanthus chinensis. Have about 60 seedlings under growlights right now, we'll see if there's any interest in these babies.

Glen

[vicki]

Glen,
Looking up the calycanthus chinensis, chinese allspice, looks like a nice shrub. Good luck to you in the coming year.
Noticed you said they were growing under lights. What kind of grow lights do you use? I have a 400 watt and a 1000 watt metal halide (MH) lamps. Plus I have florsencent light fixtures too.
Thinking of converting a room (extra tall crawl space) under my entrance porch into an indoor grow room. Been reading up and researching, but alot of the info is to do with marijuana (which is illegial here!) and I'm wanting to grow perennials. Do you have any advice? My 'room' would be about a 10 x 14 feet. I bet I could fit alot of flats in this space. Anyone else have any experience growing under 'grow' lights indoors? Would love to hear the pros and cons.
Sure don't know why I hadn't thought of this before! I could be satisfying my 'itch' to be playing in the dirt!
:)
I've figured out I can heat it by cutting a hole in the floor of the porch, and also scraped up an exhaust fan. Plus a fan to strengthen them when they get taller.
Oooh I'm getting excited just thinking about it. Then spring won't seem so far away.

[George B]

Vicki, cant you use the method of growing Marijuana and put it towards growing perennials. There might be some real good advise there. But of course you dont want to buy hardware that might make your operation to appear in some way that its not.

Vicki if anyone who enters your place should know that the hardware were used to grow perrenials. Should be straight forward, but again I dont know how tough your area is. Take care. George.

[Glen in BCz7]

Vicki--the calycanthus is taking up most of the space under my 3tier fluorescent growlight setup. You've probably seen these advertised in seed catalogs or similar gardening sites. They are very pricey, for three levels of shelving with a 4ft. double fluorescent fixture above each.

I have no more space in the house, or I'd do like you and just run lights rather than having to heat a greenhouse, I think the heat at least in winter is much more $ than running lights. My setup is right in the window beside the driveway, so everyone can see what's growing. Even so people joke about the "cash" crop under there (marijuana)...

I have no experience with the HPS or other halide/incandescent lights. I think there is a great potential for the newer LED type lights, the cannabis folk are already starting to use them. They seem to be on the cutting edge of a lot of stuff around here, it's apparently a billion $ industry in our province so they can afford to experiment and find out what works.

Glen

[vicki]

George and Glen,
Thanks for your replies. Been doing a lot of reading and researching and you're right George, I can use alot of this info for growing perennials.
I thinking I'll use the floresents fixtures until the seedlings get big enough to take advantage of the the 400 and 1000 watt light output.
Got it cleaned up and exhaust fan installed. Figuring out how to get the most plants down there. I'm thinking I'll need some benches to keep them off the floor as it is cement and cold.
Rebecca gave me alot of links, guess I just needed to wade through the google results. Thanks Rebecca.

[George B]

I found out that buying understock from wholesaler, that their stock is nice and straight. bought Fruit trees, Shade trees, Topgrafted stock anything requireing a showy stem. This is not a business where the plants are started as babies and just let to grow wild until their big enough to sell. The good grafters have a a certain grade to go by.

Training trees for years until the stock can be used as grafting understock is a lot of work. Something I wouldnt get into for the price that their going for. If someone is into selling just understock what do they do with the crooked ones. They probably stick one or two in a lot hoping they wont be caught. Im really picky quality wise.

[Glen in BCz7]

George--I've got maybe 10 or so scotch pines in 1gal that I was thinking of low grafting in the next few weeks. I'm starting to have second thoughts as I look around at what can be grafted on them.
'
I think some of the nicest grafted pines are the dwarf types like sylvestris glauca nana, topgrafted up maybe 30in. or so. But like you say, the understock needs to be really straight and looking good...what if my plants decide to go crooked or otherwise ugly before I graft onto them? Maybe stake them for a year or two now to get them up high enough with a nice straight stem?

These pines are only about a foot tall at best (2yr old ) so I'm thinking maybe they would be ready to topgraft next winter...no experience just guessing that they would grow quite a bit this summer after being quite slow the first two years. Trees seem to be quite slow for me at first, but always "speeding up" as the years go by.

I guess I would nip off the candles of the side branches that are on them now, to get all the growth into one leader for the most vertical growth in the coming growing season.

Glen

[George B]

Glen this is the part that I dont like. Time after time when the leader grows past the top of the cane that is supporting the tree, You then have to untie the cane and raise and tie the cane again.

with pine their very prickly and hard to work with gloves on. Without gloves OUCH!

The pines will be worth much more if top grafted, but at 1 foot they need more than a couple years until they reach a more desired height. You may want to prune the sides and promote leader growth. They can be grafted at 60cm. I prefer 80cm is much better height to where they'll be seen. 60cm or 80cm are both good selling sizes. The 80cm height sells faster.

The Picea Glauca globosa that you know of are grafted at 80cm.

Glen you only have a small amount, so you can fool around and try some training and see how many you want to grow as a topgrafting stock.
Its always good to try out a small amount and see if this is for you.

My dad will call me in one of the greenhouses tieing junipers. A job that a I thought would be a couple of hours is taking all day and now has stopped me from doing something more important.
I dont have time to tie trees, take care of customers, and answer the phone. I dont know which one of these are going to interfere. this is a job where both of us must be at it so if im interfered for some reason someone is still getting the job done.
George.

[George B]

Glen I didnt want to swich back and forth and loose my post.

Im pretty sure your going to graft a pine on a pine. I mentioned Picea glauca Globosa as a description of height. 30" is pretty small by the time the graft grows a nice head, it'll have no trunk.
Reason why I mentioned 60cm min cuz something like annuals can be planted under and be seen.

Make sure the trunk has pretty good caliper to hold the topgraft or you'll be training those as well.

I did have a customer who had a Picea globosa on his plan but not as a std. I told him at 89.00 whos going to see it, Spend a little more and get one as a STD that will be noticed. George.

[Glen in BCz7]

George--thanks for your thoughts that come from experience dealing with many different conifers.

I think I'll let these seedling pines go for another year anyway, and see how tall they get. Sounds like they could go 2 more years pretty easy, which means they will have to pot up to 2gal or their roots will get mighty tired of that little 1gal container.

I also have a small lot of birch seedlings, I'm probably going to rig up a real simple hot callusing line to graft himalayan birch onto these this week. Sounds like the hot callusing deal is the way to go with birches since they bleed so bad once they come out of dormancy.

The cedrus will be done the usual way in a warm poly tunnel, though I should try a few in the callusing line just to see if this could work well with them, too. It would sure save money if I didn't have to heat a whole tunnel or greenhouse to do winter grafts.

Then I just realized I have a block of smaragd "cedar" 1 gal. that could get the weeping Nootka cypress grafted onto them...those are very popular here both in commercial and private landscapes...I'm sure I could sell all I grew. I have done the nootka cedars from cuttings, they root quite dependably, but they are slow going so far. Sometimes there's a good reason why things are usually grafted, even when cuttings can be done...

Glen

[George B]

Glen- nice positive thinking. You've gone from conifers to trees without doughting yourself.

I havent heard of the Himalayan birch. My dad was never a fan of the Birch family, short life span, use of cygone, etc. Its still a nice seller specially in clump form.

Our cedars have been grown by cuttings, then changed to seed, much more body growth. The cutting were more woody.
I spent a lot of time last summer trasplanting Brabant cedar from 2g - 3g. Ive got a lot of white cedars in 2g and a bunch in 1g.

The Weeping Nootka is a nice specimen, hope you have luck at that one. My dad and I almost planted one in the front yard until my mom said it gave her the creeps. A perfect evergreen on Holloween thats for sure.

Glen keep me posted about your progress on building a propigation house. Bills bills bills.
I started to take pict from 2003 and 2004. Boy do pict talk(huge diff). George.

[Glen in BCz7]

George that's interesting about your mom's reaction to the nootka cedar. Never thought about it, it looks like a tree that could grow around the haunted mansion all right!

Still love em though, and they grow real well on this coast here close to their native area.

The cedrus I'm grafting are the deodar cedar...be mostly grafting atlas blue cedar onto these, as well as the weeping blue atlas...that makes a real unique tree. These are both rather tender, I know they use them on the east coast but probably not as far inland as you, zone 6 I think they usually say.

Glen

[George B]

Glen- I didnt make my post clear. I meant the Weeping Nootka false cypress looked spooky.
I bet youll get a lot of responses if you get this baby going. George.

[Glen in BCz7]

Yes George, I was actually thinking about the weeping nootka, these are being planted a lot commercially right now. They must be hard to keep in stock coz these are good sized trees and they take a while to get 2m or more. The original nootka cedar, also called yellow cedar, is also a beautiful tree but not as unique looking as the pendula varieties that are so narrow growing.

The cuttings rooted fine, but they have produced just a spreading little plant growing quite a bit slower than say a smaragd cedar. I'm sure I'll have to put a little stake in there to get a leader happening. On the other hand these plants look kinda pretty too, just a sort of ground cover like some of the junipers! Wonder what they would do if I just left em alone?

Might be kinda like the capitata taxus that never form a pyramidal plant from a cutting, just kinda spread around in a much different form?

Anyway, I'll look for some of the really nice pendulas for grafting wood, there is a real narrow one called green arrow that is outstanding.

Glen

[Silver Vista]

Glen,
Hope I'm not butting in here! I haven't visited this forum in probably a year, way too busy with a number of things, but just happened to take a glance today.

Don't graft your Nootkatensis to Emerald (Smaragd). It will often make an initial callus to Thuja occidentalis, but will crap out by the time it's 2 or 3 years old. Some of the pro's are using cupressocyparis leylandii, which is a close cousin, but root hardiness can be an issue. The rest of us are using Thuja orientalis, which I guess has recently been re-named Platycladus orientalis. If you ever thought it took patience to get other conifers up to size, this one will be your ultimate test! Another nurseryman in the neighborhood here swears he makes monster rooted cuttings of the orientalis and grafts onto them the next year. I really doubt it! We're growing out seedling plugs in band pots, and taking about 2 more years from the plug stage.

Best of luck!
Susan

[Ann B.]

Susan,

Thanks you for stopping by...

I have missed you!

Thanks for taking the time to pop in...

Lots to tell you, and when I catch my breath, I will!

[Glen in BCz7]

Hey Susan, it's great to hear from you. Your post will save me some grief too, which is always good!

I know how busy things can get...from time to time I've had to be away from landspro for quite long stretches.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find folks with your experience in the grafting deal...I know they are around the area here but only a tiny minority cp. all the folks in horticulture overall.

Please feel extremely welcome to comment anytime you get a spare millisecond:D

Glen