Hybridizing Daylilies....

[Ann B.]

I've gotta admit that I have never seriously tried this. Sure, I have hand pollinated and grown many, but I have truly never tried to protect the mother daylilies stigma from being open pollinated by the bees....

But this year, I think I will try. I am not going to try with expensive daylilies, because quite frankly, I don't have any, but among those that I do have, these are among my favorites...

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_01.JPG

This one has more of a mahogany, almost purple hue that doesn't show up well with my camera.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_02.JPG

And this one I have dubbed pixie because the bloom stalk so so very small. The flower is mediam sized and a very pretty pink. I will be moving these more toward the front of the border because they are somewhat lost due to their short stature.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_03.JPG

and this particular one will be used for pollen.

http://www.landspro.com/images/daylily_yellow.JPG

I truly like the lemon yellow color, and the bloom is huge, the foliage dense, but the stalks are rather tall.... I may try to hand pollinate it, but the stigma on this one is not as large as some of the others...

And then there is the one that is used to demonstrate Daylily by Seed on the main pages of Landspro. It is a good seed producer. Not all of them are...

I prefer the medium stemmed ones, but I truly must admit that the pixie size is adorable, so I will try them all!

I think that if I can get good at this, I might even try a few of the more expensive varieties....

What a fun time of the year when there are so many daylilies in bloom!

For those of you are more experienced (not hard to be) at hybridizing daylilies, are there any special tips?

[Rebecca]

Ann,

I have a couple of tips for you!

1. Cross Diploid to Diploid or Tetraploid to Tetraploid!

2. Do your dabbing early inthe mornings! (And don't be stingy with the pollen!)

I have somewhere around 30 two year old seedling that should bloom for the first time this summer, hopefully a few will be keepers! Three of thse plants will be blooming for the second time as they got rather anxious and produced their first flowers last year. I'm hoping to see some improvements in them this year, especially the red Tet seedling.

Another important tip is to just have fun!

Rebecca

[AllGreenThumbs]

Beautiful pictures, Ann!
I am brand new to this forum (was soooo excited to find you!) and don't really know where to introduce myself, but I had to comment on this topic! I am a landscaper and had the blessed fortune to work for someone for 5 years whose family had collected daylilies from around the world for two generations! (you can imagine how exciting this was for me!) Being a hoticultural NUT, I was anxious to begin the project of dividing these massive clumps of untended exotic beauties and starting a new bed that would be used to enhance other exiisting beds.
But more to the point, I tried my hand at propagation from seed and cross pollinating and had some beautiful results! As has been mentioned before, it IS very important to breed species to same species, but the fun was in seeing what if any differences you could produce by sterile (hand pollinating instead of those funny little bees doing the work) different cutivars to different cultivars!
One of the things I did was to remove ALL but one flowering stem (as they grew on) so that the plant would focus all its energy on the pollinating procedure I was about to do. This also made for larger blooms and larger seeds to save as well!
I could write a book about the exact methods I used, but it may be easier to just answer any questions anyone might have to save space on this message forum..lol.
Sincerely,
Becki

[Rebecca]

Becki,

It really isn't necessary to remove all the additional flower scapes from daylilies. Most of your long term hybridizers do many crosses on the same plant, using either the same cross pollen or from other cultivars they wish to add to their gene pool. The main thing to keep in mind is to not over-load the plant with pods, as this can cause the plant to decline and not produce as many blooms the following year. Bigger seeds do not necessairly mean bigger or better plants; all of that is determined by the genetic code within the germplasm of each plant. What makes the changes is the recombination of the genetic material donadted by each parent and each seed can carry a different combination of genetic information. The more seeds produced, the greater the diversity in the offspring and the greater the chances of producing something really outstanding.

The idea, of course, is to combine all the positive traits of each parent into one offspring. This often requires the use of sibling crosses for several generations. This also brings out any hidden or recessive traits, be they good or bad. You continue breeding the best to the best, fixing the desireable traits which can then be passed on to other lines of breeding.

It's amazing what you can learn by reading!


Rebecca

http://www.mariettagardens.com/index.htm

[Ann B.]

Welcome to Landspro, AllGreenThumbs!

We are so very excited to have you as a member.

I have so many questions, I am not sure where to begin... There is plenty of space on Landspro, and I am trying to keep as many threads as I can. To me, it is frustrating to go back to look for information, and it has 'rolled off the end'.

I also find that it is frustrating to answer the same questions again and again because my previous responses expired. Unfortunately, that means some searches for specific items will result in many threads to choose from, but that's a tradeoff, I suppose.

I received my Master Gardener Certificate in 2001. Unfortunately, I have not been able to be as active in the past 6 months while I was returning to college, but hope to be able to be more active as soon as I do some catching up around here.

I suppose that before I get very deep into hybridizing, I should buy a really good daily book. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Then, I could ask better questions and understand the answers better as well....

Thanks, and again, welcome to Landspro!

[AllGreenThumbs]

Ann,
Thank you for the welcome! I am excited to be here and have spent most of the afternoon reading past topics and subjects here ! It is quite addicting when it is raining outside..lol.
I love to share gardening info and love even more to learn new methods of doing old traditions with fellow gardeners!
Even though I no longer have the growing space I used to, you know how it is, you will cram some little something in every available nook and cranny you can find..lol. I do have an extensive library of gardening books on a variety of topics and would be more than happy to share what I know, learn what I can and throw in my own experience both good and bad for anyone to learn from..lol.
Thanks again for the warm welcome!
Becki

[sue salley]

I will show my ignorance. Can one of you tell me the meaning of the words diploid and tetraploid?
Thanks.

[Rebecca]

Sue,

Straight from the AHS's Daylily Dictionary:

DIPLOID (or DIP):

A plant having two complete sets of the basic set of chromosomes. A diploid daylily has 22 chromosomes. One set of 11 comes from the egg cell, one set from the sperm cell in the pollen.

TETRAPLOID (or TET):

Having four sets of chromosomes in each cell of the plant (in daylilies, 44 chromosomes altogether.) That is twice the number found in the sex cells (sperm and egg)

I'm including a link so you can really bone-up on aylily jargon!

<center>http://www.daylilies.org/ahs_dictionary/dictionary.html</center>

Now you'll know what all of us "Hem-Heads" are talking about!


Rebecca
:D

[Ann B.]

So, how do you know if you have one or the other or both?

[sue salley]

Gee Ann, that was my next question! How do you tell which you have?

[Ann B.]

FUN!

Well, I know that I have numerous varieties, most from bare root plants purchased here and there over the years, and some collected varieties that I brought home from my sisters ranch.

Some, I have had for many years. Some I grew from seedlings, and some I bought as packages of 'hybrid' daylilies. Quite frankly, SOME of those are the prettiest ones I have.

Unfortunately, I do not have any of the 'prized' varieties. Honestly, I would love to, but I need to get that teaching job first!

But I am hooked, and I would also like to know more....

[Rebecca]

Ladies, and any Gents also reading!

You can't tell by looking, although Tetraploids tend to be bigger all the way around, heavier blooms, thicker texture, ets. If you know the registered names of the daylilies you have you can look them up through Tinker's Daylily Databases http://www.tinkersgardens.com/Daylily%20Database/daylilydatabase.asp , once there, you'll click on Database Search, when that page is up select 'Cultivar', the 'GO' and the search page comes up. Type in the name of the plant, then hit your 'enter' key. If it's in Don's database it will show up at the bottom of the page. (You have to scroll down to get to it.)

Generally speaking, Dips and Tets aren't compatable, so if you were to cross one to the other, it shouldn't set seeds. Another, slightly technical way of finding out is to look at the pollen under a microscope. You will have to prepare a slide with two pollen samples side by side, so you can compare the two. Tet pollen is considerably larger than Dip pollen. I know, I hear ya! "But what if you don't have one that you know to be one or the other?" Do a selfing, which is pollinating the flower with it's own pollen (even if it mens taking the pollen from a different flower on the same plant.) Tet seeda are about the size of a green pea - fresh, not canned! and Dip seeds are smaller, about the same size as, say, wild morning glory seeds.

If you do know the names of your plants, I will try to find out what their ploidy is for you.

Hope y'all find this helpfull and not too terribly confusing!


Rebecca

[sue salley]

Thanks Rebecca. Maybe someday I will try breeding and I will let you tell me what I have. Just kidding. It is complicated isn't it?
I recently bought a daylily that is supposed to be blue. Have you ever seen it? I doubt it will be really blue, more likely some shade of purple. I am a sucker for anything that is supposed to be blue. I'll let you know when it blooms.

[Ann B.]

So, am I, Sue....

Blue is by far my favorite color!

[Rebecca]

Sue, Ann and All,

Let me guess, you bought 'BLUEBERRY SUNDAE' because of the photo of it in their catalog! If so, you've been had! There are no, zip, nada, zero truely<B> BLUE</B> daylilies. There are a few that have a bluish cast in the eyezone area, and that's about it.
This is what it really looks like:
<center>http://hortiplex.gardenweb.com/plants/jour/p/55/gw1053555/1521211001262157.jpeg </center>

A couple of the Florida hybridizers are getting close to blue daylilies, but they aren't quite there yet and what they are offering is very expensive!

Sorry to be the beared of bad news,


Rebecca

[sue salley]

Thanks Rebecca. I figured as much but I wanted to tryanyway. I don't know the name but that sounds good anyway. Maybe it will be unusual enough to sell well.

[Ann B.]

This one came from my sister's ranch in Texas. I don't know the name or anything about it except that it has double blossoms. Perhaps someone can tell me. These always go dormant, and daffodils spring up and bloom in the same bed before they start showing new growth.

This and some yellow ones, also from the ranch were my very first daylilies.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_double.JPG

Then I found a "baker's dozen" hybridized lilies, bareroot at Walmart. And from then on, I was hooked....

I tried planting the seeds when they were fresh despite having seen on TV that they are normally stored and stratified. I have been told by one daylily expert that this might not work for some varieties.

I certainly have a lot to learn about them if I am going to try my hand at hybridizing them, don't I?

[Rebecca]

Ann,

First of all, that double sure looks a lot like H. fluva var. 'Flore Pleno'. It originated in China and was first introduced in the early 1800's. It is one of only two naturally occuring double flowered daylilies. FP is the 'well mannered' one of the two. It tends to stay more in a clump, isn't quite as tall and has the hose in hose form. The other is H.f.'Kwanso', of which I have many and all are beginning to wander a bit too far from where they are planted!

You might try breeding your FP with that lovely yellow you showed in a previous post; it was the last image shown. Might get some interesting offspring from it, although probably not until the second generation.

Daylily seed can be direct sown as soon as they are harvested. Just barely cover the seeds, and lightly water them in - I reccommend using a fine mist to do this. Some may sprout within a week, yet others will wait until spring. Dried seed must be stored in the fridge and then soaked, to rehydrate them before they will sprout, generally. Some seed given to me this past fall actually sprouted while in the fridge. I might add, it is not necessary to dry daylily seeds for more than a day before you store them, in air tight containers, in the fridge.

Little by little, inch by inch, you'll learn what you need to know to help your daylilies to really grow!


Rebecca

[Ann B.]

Thanks, Rebecca!

I do like that yellow one. It is by far the prettiest yellow one that I have. I really don't know if it is named or was just amongst that bag of hybridized ones. I suspect that it is unamed, since it is amongst the ones I planted to adorn the fence that is near a young pecan tree that is rapidly started to create more and more shade.

I shall give that a try, but I must tell you that I am not a morning person, and you have to get up mighty early to keep the bees from pollinated before you do. Guess I'll have to get some of that cheese cloth out of the drawer, huh?

Thanks, again!

[Rebecca]

Ann,

I've dabbed pollen throughout the day and been successful. Mid morning works really well for me, cause I am NOT a morning person either!


Rebecca

[Ann B.]

It's definitely a special time when I can take a break during my day and dabble at hand pollinated...

Numerous vaqrieties have already started forming seeds. They will most likely be ready in a month or so to harvest.

I took some pictures of a few more, just for the fun of it.... Like I said, I don't have any expensive named varieties, but this is the time of the year that I certainly enjoy what I have.

I call this one pink cream ruffles. I know it is named, but lost the tag some time ago... Currently, it is in need of dividing. The blooms are medium sized, but very elegant. There is now a 3'X3' patch of these, and there are many more ready to bloom.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_10.JPG

These are about the smallest blooms that I have seen on a daylily, but quite cute!

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_11.JPG

This is the yellow one from the ranch in Texas. The cluster of these has grown huge, and I have a second cluster that also needs to be divided. I have no idea what the name is, but they bloom profusely, and tend to form a lot of seed.

These and the doubled ones are the ones that got me hooked. They are such easy to care for plants.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_12.JPG

It's no telling how old these were, since the original ranch house was built in the 1800's. I could find no record or when they were planted. They are in bright sun in this picture, and I wish that I had taken a picture a couple of days ago. There were twice as many blooms.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_13.JPG


These are the ones I call Pixie. They are named, and one day, I will look up the name....

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_15.JPG

It seems like forever to wait for the seedlings of these to bloom, but in my busy world, somehow it will seem like tomorrow...

Just some pictures from here and there in my yard...

[AllGreenThumbs]

Okay, you hybridizing bunch,
I have always just hand pollinated just one flower on a plant when I was trying to cross pollinate something. If you hand pollinated different blooms on the same plant, with pollen from several different parents, will the seeds from each of those blooms be true offspring from the parent plant? I am wondering if the pollen from the different parent does anything at all to the rest of the blooms seed.
Am I making any sense at all?..lol.
And can you cross pollinate a evergreen daylily with a deciduous one and get anything?
I've never tried to cross pollinate for traits other than color before.
Thanks!
becki

[Rebecca]

Becki,

Each flower that you pollinate will carry 50% of the genetic information from each of the two parents used on that particular cross.

For instance; Plant 'A' has three open blooms
On the first bloom, we'll call this 'A-1' you put pollen from plant 'X', the resultant offspring would be 'A-1 ' x 'x'.
On the second bloom, you use pollen from plant 'Y', and those offspring would be 'A-2' x 'Y'.
On the third bloom, you use pollen from plant 'Z', and those offspring would be 'A-3" x 'Z'.

While all three will carry 50% of thire genetic information from plant 'A', they will only carry 50% of the genetic information from the plant's pollen that was used to fertilize each individual flower.

Think of it as a group of sisters who happen to be identical triplets who marry three very different men. The children will bear a resembelance to each other because there mother's are identical triplets, but they will also bear a resembelance to there own fathers.

To answer your second question, can Evergreen and Dormants be bred together? Simply put, yes, they can. In fact, the norther hybridizers almost always cross Evergreens with Dormants to get more cold hardy plants with some of the characteristics from the Evergreen plant.

Another thing I might add is that foliage type, Evergreen, Semi-evergreen and Dormant, have nothing to do with cold hardiness. There are many 'Evergreen' varieties that are very cold hardy, and there are mant 'Dormants' that will not perform well in southern gardens.

Hope this has answered your questions without adding to your confussion!

Rebecca

[Ann B.]

I used the pollen from this one to pollinate several kinds. I used the pollen from a darker burgandy/purple one with a deeper colored inner ring to pollinate this one.

http://www.landspro.com/images/dl_nice_one.JPG

Sorry, but I only have a few fans of this one, and I think this is the first year that it is blooming so well...

Which me luck that I get seed!

[AllGreenThumbs]

Rebecca,
Very well explained! Thank you, now I understand. I read somewhere on that Daylily site that you recommended to be something about paying attention to the "ploidy" that you were cross hybridizing. Does that mean you can't cross a Diploid with a Tetraploid? I am sure I am probably making it lots harder than it really is..lol.
Ann, thank you for the pic of your beautiful baby! It's gorgeous!
Becki

[Rebecca]

Becki,

That's exactly what that means! Dips and Tets won't cross, as a general rule. Once in a great while it will happen, but only because the Tetraploid carries 'unreduced gamates'. The resulting offspring would be Triploids and have 33 chromosones. 33 won't divide equally, and no, they can't split one chromosone in half! Triploids are always self infertile, but can be crossed with Tetraploids and it sometimes works, due to the unreduced gamates. Which is how I was able to get viable seed when I crossed Chicago Sunrise with the specie varient 'Kwanso'. CS is a Tet., 'Kwanso' is a Triploid! I was very fortunate in getting 7 seeds from that cross and even more so that all of them sprouted and have been growing into nice, big, healthy seedlings. Usually you wouldn't get that many and then most won't germinate.

Stick with Dip x Dip and Tet x Tet, you'll find it a lot more rewarding! One problem you run into with some Tets is taht they have fertility problems, not all Tets though, just some. Some are only fertile one way, either as pod parents or as pollen parents. Tinker's Garden has a Fertility Database you can use to check the fertility of any Tets, or Dips for that matter, that you are thinking about hybridizing with.

Tinker's Garden (www.tinkersgarden.com)

(Hope I did that right!)

He aslo has a Daylily database that is helpfull for checking the various 'stats' ofor a DL, often including parentage and photos. It's a very good resource for anyone interesting in dabbing pollen! I highly recommend it!

Hope that helps!

Rebecca

[AllGreenThumbs]

Rebecca,
I have GOT to come meet you one of these days and see all your Daylily babies..lol. You have so much info to share! And you explain it all so well! Thank you!
I tried the link you provided and it doesn't work..
I'll try doing a search for it.
Thanks again!
Becki

[Rebecca]

Sorry about that, let's try a different link. This one should take you to the Daylily Pages Home Page and give you access to the Daylily Database and the Fertulity Database.
TINKER'S DAYLILY PAGES (http://www.tinkersgardens.com/Daylily%20Database/database.asp)

I copied and pasted that right from my address bar, so it should work!

Speaking of work, that's were I need to be headed out to - now!

Until this evening, Happy Gardening!


Rebecca


<center><a href="http://hyperphoto.photoloft.com/view/Image.asp?s=cano&u=1766954&a=1351273&i=10693843"><img src=http://hyperphoto.photoloft.com/view/exportImage.asp?s=cano&i=10693843&w=350&h=441></a>
'Stella D'Oro'</center>

[Ann B.]

I have a break in my schedule, so I checked on my seeds that were sown in mid July and still in ziplocs. Please believe me when I say that this is the very reason I sow so many different types seeds in soiless mixture in ziplocs under fluorescent lights. I simply don't have to worry about them drying out until life slows down a bit.

A couple of weeks ago, I noticed that some were taking longer to sprout. Indeed, the seeds were fine. They just hadn't sprouted. I thought, hmmmm! Perhaps these are the kind that need to be refrigerated, but then I looked at the description written on the ziploc and noticed that some were the same types that had sprouted quickly for me in the past.

I wasn't sure why, but I checked and noticed that the vermiculite wasn't quite as moist as I usually make it. I added water to each of the unsprouted bags.

All of them appear to have sprouted now, so I will be busy potting them up today and tomorrow.

If they hadn't sprouted by now, I would have surely refrigerated them.

It's so exciting to see so many tiny daylilies.... I can't wait to see them bloom! That's the FUN thing about growing from seeds... They DON'T come true, and even more fun to dabble and learn about hybridizing!

:p :p ;) :D :cool:

[Ann B.]

If you can send me your pictures via email, I will upload them to landspro, and change the url's for you. Just be sure that you send the names of them with each picture and be patient with me until I settle down in my new career.

Hopefully, I will be doing that very soon....

[Ann B.]

This is a Question...

It's a tough one, and I have researched the internet, watched tv programs, written emails to numerous hybridizers, and basically, I keep getting the same sort of answers with no specifics....

My question is why do so many advise that you refrigerate daylily seeds before sowing them? I have been told that not doing so will work for some, but not for others.

At first, I thought it was a climate issue. Daylilies up north finish blooming and produce seed much later than they do here. But I have been told by professional hybridisers that is not that case, that some need a cold dormancy before germinating.

So, there is this huge hole in my knowledge and my understanding, and I am seeking specifics.

How do I know for sure that the daylily seeds need to be refrigerated to get good germination rates?

If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have to keep guessing and trying....

If anyone has any thoughts and ideas, please share with me for I am truly trying to understand.

Thanks!

[Rebecca]

Hi! Ann,

The most often reasonning I've ever read is that seed from dormant plants - ones that lose all their foliage in the winter - gennerally will need stratification befor they will sprout. The evergreen cultivars don't need any and the semi-evergreen fall somewhere in between.

Being in a climate that has definet seasons and most especially, real winters, I simply refridgerate all my seeds, as all of my plants pretty much go completely dormant during winter. The few evergreen varieties I have keep only a few green parts, but most of their foliage dies back to within a few inches of the ground.

On the Gulf Coast like you are, you should be able to sow right from the pod and have nearly all your seeds sprout. Any that don't sprout right away may do so come spring if your planting directly in the ground.

Since you use the damp paper towel method after you've seeded the moistened towels and placed them in the zip-lock bags, just pop them into the fridge for 2 - 3 weeks. Those that are going to sprout right away will and the remaining ones should sprout within a few days after being taken out of the fridge and placed in filtered light or under the grow lights. Hey, it won't hurt to try!

Hope this gives you some insight and doesn't add to your confussion! :D

Rebecca

[Ann B.]

Rebecca,

I haven't tried the damp paper towel method with daylily seeds, primarily because when they do sprout, the roots grow so large so very fast and the new leaves are so fragile. In my mind, sprouting them in paper towels could cause the tender leaves to rot before I checked them, so I choose not to use paper towels or tissues with them.

I have always grown them in ziplocs with a combination of vermiculite and/or vermiculite and peat moss.

Also, most of my daylilies do go dormant and lose all of their foliage in the winter. Our ground doesn't freeze, but we do have hard frost and freezes which cause the foliage to freeze, then thaw and wither to nothing.

This past winter was rather mild for us, but we did get down to the mid 20's a few times, and there were varieties that had a 'few' leaves survive in the winter, but that is not the norm. Nearly all of mine go completely dormant. I was surprised last year when some did not appear to have gone totally dormant. I am sure they did for awhile, and I did not see it. It' just that there were leaves earlier than usual due to our mild late winter/early spring.

So, that brings up another topic of confusion, the term 'everygreen' daylily.....

:confused: